kriminal sa impyerno dapat ang bagsak?

[smilecute68]

7 months ago nanood ako ng movie na napunta ang dalawang kriminal sa impyerno na naconfine sa mental hospital bago pumatay.

marami factors kaya naging criminal ang isang tao. like ng genes, environment, status in life, family, friends, etc.

i agree na makulong at ibigay ang tamang punishment pero hindi tama na sabihin na meron demonyo sa katawan nila. walang tao na gusto maging criminal unless na lang kung may mga factors na naging rason.

lahat ng criminal naging baby, bata, teenager na hindi nagkaroon ng chance para maayos ang sarili nila kya nagawa nila na maging masamang tao.

agree ba kayo na sa impyerno dapat sila mapunta?

[FreyaLuna]

The question postulates the existence of hell as believers of hell know it. Since there has been no concrete evidence as to whether this exists or not, I think that criminals should be tried and, if found guilty, penalized during life, not in the afterlife.

[smilecute68]

^ tama! pero may mga tao na madaling magjudge na mapupunta yan sa impyerno kasi ito ginawa niya sa akin, at sa ibang tao.

if alam lang nila na hindi nangyayari ang isang kilos na walang pinagmulan o dahilan..

[FreyaLuna]

pero may mga tao na madaling magjudge na mapupunta yan sa impyerno kasi ito ginawa niya sa akin, at sa ibang tao.

Then perhaps the same judgment (or prejudgment) that they mete out to others should also be applicable to themselves. Also, that kind of thinking is indicative of the limitations of their understanding: 'if you do this, you're going to hell (because I believe I am licensed to say so and because I assume that you also believe in the existence of hell), and my saying so guarantees me a spot in heaven.'

Unless a person is willing and able to understand beyond their own preconceived beliefs, reasoning with them is an exercise in futility.

As far as crime is concerned, not all criminal activity is justifiable. That is why we have human laws, and explicit and implicit social rules by which we are expected to behave within the limits of human decency. And ideally, these laws must be able to transcend differences between diverse belief systems.

[smilecute68]

^ agree naman ako ikulong at ibigay ang dapat na punishment. ang point ko lang, meron mga tao na nagsasabi na naging masama ka tao because of demons. hindi nila nakikita kabuoan. tama ka nga, limited din ang understanding nila. hindi sila open sa iba pang belief aside sa paniniwala nila.

[pooch]

7 months ago nanood ako ng movie na napunta ang dalawang kriminal sa impyerno na naconfine sa mental hospital bago pumatay.

marami factors kaya naging criminal ang isang tao. like ng genes, environment, status in life, family, friends, etc.

i agree na makulong at ibigay ang tamang punishment pero hindi tama na sabihin na meron demonyo sa katawan nila. walang tao na gusto maging criminal unless na lang kung may mga factors na naging rason.

lahat ng criminal naging baby, bata, teenager na hindi nagkaroon ng chance para maayos ang sarili nila kya nagawa nila na maging masamang tao.

agree ba kayo na sa impyerno dapat sila mapunta?

Ate smilecute68, I find your post disturbing....or at least weird. Bakit ko po nasabi? Kasi po, of all the reasons that you gave bilang factors kaya nagiging kriminal ang isang tao, you gave invalid factors one after another...Samantalang ang bukod tanging factor lang naman po kung bakit nagiging kriminal ang isang tao is because of their evil choice eh. Wala ng iba. Yun na yun.

Ka ke nasa bad environment ka, it does not mean na papatay ka or justified kang pumatay. Ano, acquitted for you si Leo Echegaray? And status in life, and all that you mentioned are all irrelevant po eh.

So I am attacking yung premise po ng case ninyo.. What do you think?


Pooch

---------- Post added at 11:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:21 PM ----------

The question postulates the existence of hell as believers of hell know it. Since there has been no concrete evidence as to whether this exists or not, I think that criminals should be tried and, if found guilty, penalized during life, not in the afterlife.

But ka ke believer sa hell or unbeliever sa hell, ipupunish naman po during this life eh.
Pero panigurado, ka ke naniniwala sa hell or hindi, parurusahan rin sa hell yun!


Pooch

---------- Post added at 11:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:24 PM ----------

lahat ng criminal naging baby, bata, teenager na hindi nagkaroon ng chance para maayos ang sarili nila kya nagawa nila na maging masamang tao.

Read more: kriminal sa impyerno dapat ang bagsak?

May innate or inborn na moral choice po ang bawat tao ah. Ka ke hindi edukado ang isang tao.. kahit na kahit kelan eh hindi tumuntong sa eskwelahan po eh, alam nila na mali ang ginagawa nila ah. diba? At alam din nila kung tama ang ginagawa nila. Ang tao ay may kunsensya. Alam niya na mabuting tumulong sa kapwa. Kahit magnanakaw eh, alam niyang tumulong.. Alam din niyang masamang pumatay. Pero yun iba nga lang eh, napipilitan. Or whatever the reason is --- regardless.... The point is that alam niya yun sa kaloob-looban ng puso niya.


Pooch

---------- Post added at 11:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:28 PM ----------

^ tama! pero may mga tao na madaling magjudge na mapupunta yan sa impyerno kasi ito ginawa niya sa akin, at sa ibang tao.

if alam lang nila na hindi nangyayari ang isang kilos na walang pinagmulan o dahilan..

What is true though? Just because na maraming tao ang nagsasabi does not mean that they are correct. But then tingin ko po'y ang punto ninyo eh "may underlying na dahilan" kaya siya nakagawa ng isang heinous criime.
Pero anupaman ang dahilan niya, gumawa pa rin siya ng heinous crime. diba?

Parang ganito:
Si Pedro, sa sobrang hirap eh, nagnakaw ng sardinas kay Aling Nena. Pinahuli ni Aling Nena sa pulis. Dapat bang parusahan si Pedro? Naniniwala akong dapat. Ka ke mahirap ka o mayaman, dapat parusahan ang nagnakaw. di ba?

Yung personal na dahilan mo (ni Pedro), unreasonable yun eh....



Pooch

---------- Post added at 11:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:33 PM ----------

As far as crime is concerned, not all criminal activity is justifiable. That is why we have human laws, and explicit and implicit social rules by which we are expected to behave within the limits of human decency. And ideally, these laws must be able to transcend differences between diverse belief systems.

"Not all"? I think that none is justifiable! diba? Or am I missing something?


And you used "social rules" and "human laws" as if na tayo ang source ng rules. I know that this might go to another grey area pero gusto ko lang ipoint out na inconsistent po ito nang sabihin ninyong, "these laws must be able to transcend..." Eh kung tayong mga tao nga ang gumawa e..



Pooch

[ukmac1986]

Kung hindi sa impyerno ang bagsak nila? Saan?

[pooch]

^ agree naman ako ikulong at ibigay ang dapat na punishment. ang point ko lang, meron mga tao na nagsasabi na naging masama ka tao because of demons...

Demon possession must be evaluated based on its own merit. Iba naman po ang movies sa real life eh.

hindi sila open sa iba pang belief aside sa paniniwala nila

being open sa ibang belief (if you mean "tolerance") is different from saying that a particular belief is wrong. For example, I as a Christian, believes that every other non-Christian belief is wrong.... But that does not mean na hindi ako "open sa ibang belief" ah.. I respect them naman po for we have the same Creator. And so I am open to dialogue. But it does not mean that I have to accept whatever they say (or their belief) especially if their belief is inconsistent.... Alam ninyo yun? I would say that they are flat wrong.


Pooch

[FreyaLuna]

But ka ke believer sa hell or unbeliever sa hell, ipupunish naman po during this life eh.

That's what I previously posted:

criminals should be tried and, if found guilty, penalized during life, not in the afterlife.

Pero panigurado, ka ke naniniwala sa hell or hindi, parurusahan rin sa hell yun!

A person cannot be penalized for a concept that has no concrete basis for existence. Again, that is why we have State laws and rules that can be applied to anyone regardless of what they believe in or not.

A person who believes in the existence of hell, naturally, believes that other people could be punished there. But that is not the basis for penalizing criminals, because criminals may come from any and all denominations, and to impose hell on a nonbeliever would mean interference from the church to the state.

[pooch]

Kung hindi sa impyerno ang bagsak nila? Saan?

Baka sa langit brad. Nandun si Tupac Shakur.


jokes!

---------- Post added at 11:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:44 PM ----------

A person cannot be penalized for a concept that has no concrete basis for existence. Again, that is why we have State laws and rules that can be applied to anyone regardless of what they believe in or not.

True. Ah, I was speaking as a Christian po when I said that.

A person who believes in the existence of hell, naturally, believes that other people could be punished there.

Eksaktly po.

But that is not the basis for penalizing criminals, because criminals may come from any and all denominations, and to impose hell on a nonbeliever would mean interference from the church to the state.

Weeellll.........


Pooch


PS: gets na po.

[FreyaLuna]

"Not all"? I think that none is justifiable! diba? Or am I missing something?


And you used "social rules" and "human laws" as if na tayo ang source ng rules. I know that this might go to another grey area pero gusto ko lang ipoint out na inconsistent po ito nang sabihin ninyong, "these laws must be able to transcend..." Eh kung tayong mga tao nga ang gumawa e..



Pooch

How about the homeless man who robbed a bank for $1 so he could be thrown in jail, so he can receive basic medical care that the system has denied him?

As for social rules and human laws, what is the point of being a law-abiding citizen in any given country if an individual refuses to follow state laws, regardless of whether or not this agrees with their personal beliefs? What if one's personal belief states that it's okay to castigate, condemn, and kill nonbelievers, and vice-versa? That's what state [human] laws are for -- to regulate society's behavior despite its innate diversity.

With all due respect Poochy, we could reach a stalemate here, and I think we could agree to disagree at some points. Peace.

[pooch]

How about the homeless man who robbed a bank for $1 so he could be thrown in jail, so he can receive basic medical care that the system denied him?

proportionality of punishment ate..

As for social rules and human laws, what is the point of being a law-abiding citizen in any given country if an individual refuses to follow state laws, regardless of whether or not this agrees with their personal beliefs? What if one's personal belief states that it's okay to castigate, condemn, and kill nonbelievers, and vice-versa? That's what state [human] laws are for -- to regulate society's behavior despite its innate diversity.

Ay ibang usapan ito ate.. Sa ibang thread na ito. hehe..

With all due respect Poochy, I think we will reach a stalemate here, and I think it would be best for us to agree to disagree at some points.

Ay si ate, ayaw makipag-engage.. Sige na nga! Hindi naman po ako nangangagat. lol
Ako eh, kumbaga, prober lang. haha.. I know that we would agree to disagree. Pero alam mo yun, marahil siguro dahil mas bata po ako sa inyo at mas mapusok kaya mas gusto ko pa rin ng "back and forth" if you know what I mean and that "tapos na kayo sa phase or sa stage na yun" lalo na siguro after ng isang frustrating experience ninyo rito sa grey kung saan sumakit ang bangs ninyo at nagcurl ang inyong eyelash dahil sa isang belligerent member at wala kayong patience para siya'y ituwid.

Nonetheless, ako po'y maamong aso...


Pooch

[smilecute68]

Ate smilecute68, I find your post disturbing....or at least weird. Bakit ko po nasabi? Kasi po, of all the reasons that you gave bilang factors kaya nagiging kriminal ang isang tao, you gave invalid factors one after another...Samantalang ang bukod tanging factor lang naman po kung bakit nagiging kriminal ang isang tao is because of their evil choice eh. Wala ng iba. Yun na yun.

Ka ke nasa bad environment ka, it does not mean na papatay ka or justified kang pumatay. Ano, acquitted for you si Leo Echegaray? And status in life, and all that you mentioned are all irrelevant po eh.

So I am attacking yung premise po ng case ninyo.. What do you think?

agree ako na dapat ikulong o ipunish ang isang tao kapag nakagawa ng krimen.

May innate or inborn na moral choice po ang bawat tao ah. Ka ke hindi edukado ang isang tao.. kahit na kahit kelan eh hindi tumuntong sa eskwelahan po eh, alam nila na mali ang ginagawa nila ah. diba? At alam din nila kung tama ang ginagawa nila. Ang tao ay may kunsensya. Alam niya na mabuting tumulong sa kapwa. Kahit magnanakaw eh, alam niyang tumulong.. Alam din niyang masamang pumatay. Pero yun iba nga lang eh, napipilitan. Or whatever the reason is --- regardless.... The point is that alam niya yun sa kaloob-looban ng puso niya.

meron mga taong ipinanganak na may problema sa personality or mental disorder na nagiging dahilan para makagawa ng mga krimen pero kung naayos pagpapalaki sa kanila mababawasan chance na maging ganun sila.

What is true though? Just because na maraming tao ang nagsasabi does not mean that they are correct. But then tingin ko po'y ang punto ninyo eh "may underlying na dahilan" kaya siya nakagawa ng isang heinous criime.
Pero anupaman ang dahilan niya, gumawa pa rin siya ng heinous crime. diba?

Parang ganito:
Si Pedro, sa sobrang hirap eh, nagnakaw ng sardinas kay Aling Nena. Pinahuli ni Aling Nena sa pulis. Dapat bang parusahan si Pedro? Naniniwala akong dapat. Ka ke mahirap ka o mayaman, dapat parusahan ang nagnakaw. di ba?

Yung personal na dahilan mo (ni Pedro), unreasonable yun eh....

hindi pinili ni pedro na maging ganun ang sitwasyon nya pero agree ako na ipunish siya sa nagawa niya mali. hindi pwede sabihin na meron kinalaman si satan sa pagnakaw ni pedro. kung paano siya lumaki, genes, life, etc. ang naging reason kaya siya nakagawa ng krimen.

[pooch]

agree ako na dapat ikulong o ipunish ang isang tao kapag nakagawa ng krimen.

Ayt. No problemo then.

meron mga taong ipinanganak na may problema sa personality or mental disorder na nagiging dahilan para makagawa ng mga krimen pero kung naayos pagpapalaki sa kanila mababawasan chance na maging ganun sila.

Ah, then this is another level. Kasi po, hindi developed ang kanilang moral compass. Samakatwid, they will be evaluated differently. May mga cases naman pong ganito eh gaya ni Vincent Weiguang Li na sa umpisa eh kala mo psychopath pero clearly may disorder sa kanyang pagiisip.

hindi pinili ni pedro na maging ganun ang sitwasyon nya pero agree ako na ipunish siya sa nagawa niya mali. hindi pwede sabihin na meron kinalaman si satan sa pagnakaw ni pedro. kung paano siya lumaki, genes, life, etc. ang naging reason kaya siya nakagawa ng krimen.

sure.
kaya nga po sabi ko eh,

Demon possession must be evaluated based on its own merit

Read more: http://forums.mukamo.com/newreply.ph...#ixzz21nvznmJs

Di ba? Pero naniniwala po akong may kinalaman talaga ang masasamang espiritu sa bawat krimen at sa bawat kasamaan na nangyayari. Especially sa talagang heinous crimes.

[smilecute68]

^ tama si freya.

let's agree to disagree.
may mga belief tayo na magkaiba