The Kobe Thread

[KillaCrab]

now how can we interpret that picture...

[zangief]

now how can we interpret that picture...

"pucker up, big guy"?

[irvin2030]

You're right. That's something Kobe has failed to do, controlling his image. If Kobe was only nice, cuddly, and has the same charm like Magic Johnson or Jordan, he would have been there right now. But more and more people have come to appreciate Bryant's greatness nowadays. He's the most popular athlete back in 2008 olympics and back to back number 1 selling jersey. Even his shoes right now are high in demand. But then again, this side should not be included in the whole Kobe-MJ debate. Basketball is all about skills/ability. And again, as I or we believe, skill-wise and ability-wise, Kobe has surpassed MJ in this tougher era of basketball.

i dont agree.. gary payton is way way better than steve nash in both ends of the floor but he doesnt win an MVP plum why? because competition back then was stiffer.. while i concede that skill wise kobe surpassed jordan its very good to imagine how jordan will be when NOW is his prime or his prime was extended up to now.. of course his skills WILL be better than what it used to be.. i mean makakasabay sya syempre.. you know jordan, first in his years he was an all-penetration-less-jumper player.. but due to the defense thrown at him he developed his jumper and his above average jumpshooting became superb an improvement faster than you think.. and when do kobe developed his jumpshooting? in his mid career right?

[KillaCrab]

@invi

this is a tougher era of basketball... DON'T make ME LAUGH

this is a soft time for basketball... no hand check rule, touch fouls egad...

the eighties was one tough era wherein meanness was king .. teams like the bad boys, slow down beat me up cavs, grind up celtics... jordan has been clothesline and hit hard by the bad boys countless of times and only a measly foul was called.. now you do that to another player you will get a suspension

[InViCtUs]

i dont agree.. gary payton is way way better than steve nash in both ends of the floor but he doesnt win an MVP plum why? because competition back then was stiffer.. while i concede that skill wise kobe surpassed jordan its very good to imagine how jordan will be when NOW is his prime or his prime was extended up to now.. of course his skills WILL be better than what it used to be.. i mean makakasabay sya syempre.. you know jordan, first in his years he was an all-penetration-less-jumper player.. but due to the defense thrown at him he developed his jumper and his above average jumpshooting became superb an improvement faster than you think.. and when do kobe developed his jumpshooting? in his mid career right?

In both ends? Nah. Steve Nash is a better shooter, a better playmaker, a better off ball, better dribbler, better at traffic, better scorer (more efficient). Payton never shot 50% on the field. The only thing Payton is better at Nash is at the low post and on the defensive end. That's the thing with Jordan, there were no LBJ, Carmelo Anthony, Kevin Durant, Dwayne Wade, etc. at his time, in short, no taller, better athletes(I used athlete, not player) that will defend him.

@invi

this is a tougher era of basketball... DON'T make ME LAUGH

this is a soft time for basketball... no hand check rule, touch fouls egad...

the eighties was one tough era wherein meanness was king .. teams like the bad boys, slow down beat me up cavs, grind up celtics... jordan has been clothesline and hit hard by the bad boys countless of times and only a measly foul was called.. now you do that to another player you will get a suspension

No handcheck? "shaking my head"
That's the biggest myth in basketball today. If there are no handchecks, guys like Nash, Lebron, Durant, Duncan, Howard, Wade, etc. would average 20ft's a game. Soft time of Basketball? Maybe this would end things up.






Blue: Isolation era+Handchecking
Red: Zone era+Handchecking (Best defensive era in NBA history)
Green: Zone Era without handchecking





Conclusion: Free throw attempts per game and fouls per game have decreased substantially from the 80s and 90s.

What do the players think?

Kevin Garnett, Tim Duncan, Tracy McGrady

KICKS: If you guys could change one rule in the League, what would it be?
Kevin Garnett: No zone.
Tim Duncan : Yeah, the zone.
Kevin Garnett: If there was one rule I could change today, it would be the zone.

KICKS: Because it didn’t do what they thought it would do?
Kevin Garnett: I think it puts players that are really good at a disadvantage, so to speak. Everybody here gets double-teams, if not triple-teams, so we can all speak on this. But it sorta—I remember Phoenix sat somebody literally right there [in the lane].
Tracy McGrady: It makes it hard for a guy like me—
Kevin Garnett: —who penetrates.
Tim Duncan: It makes it hard for all of us.
Tracy McGrady: It’s tough on all of us, it really is. When you’re tryin’ to make a move, and you got another guy sittin’ right there on the same side just waitin’…
Kevin Garnett: Waitin’ on you!
Tracy McGrady: Just waitin’.
Kevin Garnett: He ain’t even playin’ his man!
Tracy McGrady: Nah, not at all.

Link: SLAM ONLINE | » KICKS 6: The Power of 3

2001, P.J Brown:

"I don't think it's good at all. Zones will bring the games to a grind," Charlotte forward P.J. Brown said.

2001, Shaquille O'neal:

"Stinks," the Los Angeles star said. "I have a lot to say, but not now.

2001, Colangelo, on why the rule change was proposed:

"Our belief is that the game has evolved, and the product we have presently was one that needed attention," Colangelo said "The game has changed in the sense that we've lost a lot of fluidity. We've evolved into an isolation game because of our defensive guidelines, and we weren't satisfied with the way the game looked."
Link: CNNSI.com - NBA Basketball - NBA owners approve rules changes - Sunday April 15, 2001 06:03 PM
__
The physicality of the game will be there always, okay, let's say it's less now. But more players will deal with the physicality rather than double/triple/quadruple team that they'd face with the zone. I mean, You haven't have touch the ball and the opponent can double team you immediately.

[zangief]

hahahaha!!! all those stats and you didn't present a single freakin' point, and what funnier is that you just owned yourself with the very stats you came up with!

you see, back when there was no zone, you either have to be really good on defense or smack your player when he gets by you because getting help defense is much harder before than it is today, meaning players would have to be more physical. But even if the game was more physical back then, they still score more because there is no zone. now that zone is implemented as well as the handchecks, help defense is much easier to get, thus the needs to foul someone is much less and the game gets softer. when they removed the handchecks the fouls got even lesser obviously. the proof is in your geeky FT stats sheet.

your stats didn't prove anything except that you're one of the dumbest geeks around.

[Winger]

I thought that this was a player thread, shouldn't this have its own discussion thread? This way off course.

[KillaCrab]

look at the rodman check you do this right now it will be a a T or a Dl foul .



look at the time frame of 0:12 -0:17 watch how kareem(?) dislodges parish (?) from the post right now that kind of move is a foul. at 3:48 it would have been a technical

don't say that right now is tougher.. they changed the rules to extend the playing days of players

[Winger]

should've done more research before posting or claiming anything. those were from the late eighties games, games were more tougher in the early to mid eighties.

again, i thought this was a Kobe Bryant thread. this is now off course to the main subject.

[KillaCrab]

they allowed more hits during the mid eighties... guys like mahorn, oakley, ruland , laimbeer and other enforcers to get away with. sissy touches were not called.

if kobe played during that time he would have gotten hit more often and with his temper he probably have gotten his ass kicked now and again. jordan never lost his temper when he got hit.. kobe losses his.

i have no respect for kobe's fighting skill because of the slap fest he had with childs.. if that was barkley or artest or one of the davis's (antonio or dale) they would have taken that guy apart...

[InViCtUs]

hahahaha!!! all those stats and you didn't present a single freakin' point, and what funnier is that you just owned yourself with the very stats you came up with!

you see, back when there was no zone, you either have to be really good on defense or smack your player when he gets by you because getting help defense is much harder before than it is today, meaning players would have to be more physical. But even if the game was more physical back then, they still score more because there is no zone. now that zone is implemented as well as the handchecks, help defense is much easier to get, thus the needs to foul someone is much less and the game gets softer. when they removed the handchecks the fouls got even lesser obviously. the proof is in your geeky FT stats sheet.

your stats didn't prove anything except that you're one of the dumbest geeks around.

ignorant post. The point of the above stats is that today is a tougher era on the defensive end rather than the 80's, where when you put a hand on the face of the shooter, you get a technical( FIBA (intenational federation of basketball) Rules.

38.3.1 A technical foul is a player non-contact foul of a behavioral nature including, but not limited to:
•.
•
•.
• Baiting an opponent or obstructing his vision by waving his hands near his eyes.
)(in the 80's. NBA also used this rule)
Today is an era which is tougher to score, plus the fact of the "no handcheck" rule of the nba is becoming a myth. better defense= better competition. enough said.

[InViCtUs]

look at the rodman check you do this right now it will be a a T or a Dl foul .



look at the time frame of 0:12 -0:17 watch how kareem(?) dislodges parish (?) from the post right now that kind of move is a foul. at 3:48 it would have been a technical

don't say that right now is tougher.. they changed the rules to extend the playing days of players

watch how teams use zone to deny the player the ball and how the "no hand check" rule became a myth


what i love about the 80's is that the refs, most of the time, let the players play. but again, the name of the defense game is holding your opponent points down and their fg%. and that's what happens here in this era.

end of the story,

[KillaCrab]

you are ignoring several facts

let me state them

1. it was only during the 1988-1989 season that the 3 ref system was used.
2. the refs gave more leeway during the mid eighties on what a player can do. have you seen how physical the games were during that time? how guys like jeff ruland would literally body slam or push out a posting player? how driving you would get hit on the front and back of the body and the referee would only call one foul.
3. refs did not call touch fouls

[KillaCrab]

@invi

kindly watch the annotated games. i believe you did not even watch. that is why guys like bernard king learned how to shoot from the outside since it was painful to penetrate inside particularly with teams that have enforcer mentality

[sweeT Tooth]

seriously is this still about kobe?

let's talk about kobe how he scores, how he motivates the team.
how could he let pictures of him wearing that white outfit get out.